I have always been an improv dancer to a live band. Now that I'm retired from the nightclubs and just teach, when I perform workshops, etc. everything is with CD and choreographed.
I'm getting so used to seeing perfectly choreographed routines, that when I look back on m taped live shows, I see all the flaws with technique, posture, whatever. But then, this was meant to be a live show that captured the moment the feeling. It was never meant to be a portrait of "perfect" dancing that I personally feel choreos many choreos nowadays reflect.
Thoughts?
I'm getting so used to seeing perfectly choreographed routines, that when I look back on m taped live shows, I see all the flaws with technique, posture, whatever. But then, this was meant to be a live show that captured the moment the feeling. It was never meant to be a portrait of "perfect" dancing that I personally feel choreos many choreos nowadays reflect.
Thoughts?
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 5:47 PMOh just to expand. I've had several dancers of my generation express this same sentiment. We were always "live" dancers. Our shows were 1/2 to 45-60 minutes long. We had stamina and skills and technique to pull us through that and survive for years on end. We improved on a daily basis and survived, in fact flourished!
But a 4-8 minute choreography freaks us out! -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 8:13 PMI agree with you, Norma. I prefer improv with live music. It is much more dynamic. I love the intereaction between dancer and muscian. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:41 PMI generally perfer to see choreographed stuff with multiple people, therefore that is what I create. I like seeing design made with people, I think it is really interesting and dynamic! I tink it is just a personal preferance. Where we live there are no live musicians (ski town in CO), so we only have recorded stuff. It's funny, dancing totally improv is scary to me, although I can do it and have in the past, it is still 'yikes' to me!! We are actually working on that in class right now, so we can all get more comfortable. I think the most well rounded dancer can do both well; be a dy=namic and interesting solo improver, and also mesh into a choreography.
Interesting subject, thanks!!
Happy shimmies, Molly
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:44 PMI agree with the sentiment here, but I think we should take into account other issues. Speaking for myself, there is a lot of pressure out there (coming from many in the bellydance community) to give a "perfect" performance. This translates into creating a choreographed piece that you drill to death, just so you nail the tech. Whether it's the threads on tribe or comments at a show, there is so much judgement out there. It can be difficult to get into a head space of trusting that you know what you know and just dance. I know that I feel that way sometimes in front of a BD audience. When I dance in front of a non-BD crowd, I feel that I get a lot more appreciation.
That said, I am challenging myself and have begun choosing some music to do an unchoreo dance to. I agree that it's an art that should be revived. I just think that we need to create some space for it to make it's come back.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 10:24 PMNorma,
I think there's also a difference between the multi dancer shows and the "out and working" dancer shows. Even without live band I'm always improvising and so are most of the busy dancers I know. There is way too much that can happen at a non-stage show that you have to be ready to deal with and respond to.
Good improv is a treat to watch. Choreography can be lovely- but I prefer things that aren't choreographed down to the eyelash. Spontaneity and responsive emotion is integral to what I love about this dance form.
Someone has a fabulous quote that I can only paraphrase - "Americans see a dancer and think "here's a dancer, let's see how she can dance', whereas Arabs see a dancer and think "here's a dancer, let's see who she is." I much prefer the latter. Sometimes the former thought process results in automatons on stage. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:56 PMI love that quote Samira!
And Norma, I think your comment about your video is very telling. The fact that you could look back and assess your flaws and mistakes and be very critical of yourself...well, look at the world today. Everything is on YouTube. Everything is recorded For All Time!
Okay, not literally everything, but y'know, I came from a generation whos childhood was recorded on 8mm film, if at all. My parents were pretty forward thinking to even own a video camera, which the film had to be sent off to be processed onto reels, and we watched on our reel-to-reel projected on a folding screen. With no sound. It seems I can't possibly be old enough for that to be the case, because it seems "so long ago", but I am only 33 years old, and that is the case in the 70's.
So skip ahead to the 80's, where little was recorded. And what was, was on a very delicate recording medium (VHS/Beta), and was rarely widely distributed unless you were selling a professional video, which had been shot and edited with that in mind. Even the first half of the 90's was pretty limited.
Then get to the turn of the century, and woah Nelly. Suddenly, many people have video cameras, and computers are being shipped with video editing software standard. YouTube crops up, and then not only are video cameras more widespread, but PHONES HAVE VIDEO CAMERAS IN THEM! The chance for your best and worst to be caught in the act and posted for you and the world to see just jumped a million-fold.
I think the shift to choreography is exactly a reflection of this technology shift. People are too afraid that their flubs will go down in electronic history. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 2:39 AMI also love to see good improvisation of a creative dancer rather than choreo (choreo helps me though for learning). But as Shay says: mass media. If you don't see it live, you might miss a great deal of the atmosphere, and for taping, choreo might be more suitable. I enjoy watching a beautiful, artful choreo and I also enjoy dancing it, but on stage, less choreo always looks better than full choreo. If you don't have access to live music, it seems harder to start improvising, because the music also is on "automatic". There is an extra energy boost from the live musicians that makes you dance in a a way playback never can. Maybe it is even difficult to stick to choreo when you have live music because it stands between you and the musicians (that is only a guess). So what should people in Alaska, in Venezuela or Czech Republic do, that don't have large immigrant communities from Arab countries playing that music? People all over the world are bellydancing now and often they only have a cd player and a recording, not even an audience that understands what they are on about. It is hard to learn how to improvise under these conditions.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 8:21 AMI agree that improvisation is an important skill for a working dancer. With different venues to consider and many different gigs to prepare for, there is no time to create, memorize and perfect a choreography for each show - especially when many restaurant shows or bellygrams or whatnot require multiple songs. And you can't keep doing the same choreography every week for your regulars. Plus you don't know what can happen - someone walks in the door, waiter walks through, etc.
Choreography is really important for group pieces though, and I think sometimes the goal of group piece is less about "who the dancer is" and more about the dancing and the picture made on the stage. I'm in a group performance this week and one thing I've realized as I've been working on it with the other participants - I am not there to shine or to show my individuality - I am there to realize the dream of the choreographer - and actually, how well I execute a move - while important - it's more important that I execute that move in sync and style with the other dancers. Because I'm just a part that makes a greater whole. This is where I think choreographing down the every last movement and facial expression is useful.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 7:08 AMI love improv (and live music!). I love to DO improv, and actually find it much less stressful than trying to execute a choreography someone else designed.
Most of my classes for cabaret style dance have been solely technique, choreography, follow-the-leader and a bit of musicality. Last week was the first time one of my teachers asked for us to improv, in class, to a piece of music. Everyone (save myself) was rather horrified (though a couple people went along with the lesson and ended up having fun with it). I actually thought one of the women was going to walk out though. Makes me think maybe the concept should be introduced to students earlier.
Personally, I prefer to watch "in the moment" improv in soloists - i like the joy and passion that shows in that that you dont always see in a set routing.
Hoping we do more improv in class and I would love to find a workshop or two to help improve improvisation skills. :-) -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:17 AMI personally don't mind choreographing music for other dancers. I just personally don't like it for myself. I find I get so caught up in the perfect pose, etc that I don't relax and feel the music on the day of the actual performance. But I did start doing that for the exact reason Shay mentioned. Nowadays, the youtube videos seem sooo polished and perfect. Videos of live show are noisy, grainy, catch you at a bad angle...
When I watch a dancer doing live improv I enjoy it more and I'm more into the feel and vibe of the place, the music, the dancer, just the whole experience. I think it is less stressful to perform to as well. You got one shot to get it right and then it's done. It is what it is. Whereas if you are choreographing a piece of music you can work it to death.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 12:57 PMChoreography has its place - in group performances, and on large theatre stages it is a good choice. I don't think one should dismiss choreography.
I suspect that what gives choreography its bad name is bad dancing, without a feel for the music. A good dancer will make improv look good, and a good dancer will dance a choreography in a way that moves the audience. The fault is not necessarily with choreography, but rather with being able to dance to the music, and it does not matter whether it is on CD or live. A good dancer will bring recorded music to life. And, those dancers who do not feel the music and who make choreography look boring are unlikely to improvise.
When it comes to the CD part in "when I perform workshops, etc. everything is with CD and choreographed." - that is logistics! It's just not practical to have a full Arabic band with equipment (including amplification for the kanoun and the oud etc.) come out to play one song for free for a dancer at a workshop show. Comparing that to a nightclub environment seems like comparing apples and oranges. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:10 AMIn the pro scene in DC right now at least 95% of shows are to CD but none of the busy professional dancers use choreography. One doesn't need a live band to improvise.
Steffi, I think you make a really great point about "good dancing/bad dancing", and would also like to add in "bad choreography". There is a skill set needed to create lively, dynamic choreographies, just as there is a skill set needed to improvise well.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 3:01 PMI personally prefer choreography for myself, right now - and I also love group improv, ITS style. But I love to *watch* anything, so long as I can see who the dancer is (like Samira said, and I love that quote!). If every dancer does what is most comfortable for them, and does it well, I think there is a huge variety to watch and admire. You'll get some of everything, if everyone does their own preference and all of those are respected and welcomed. I love that variety - I don't want to watch the same type of thing five times in a row. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 3:06 PM*By doing it well, I mean sharing what they want to share, expressing the music, not necessarily technical perfection. It's very admired right now, but I agree that worrying too much about perfection can drain the joy out of dancing. If I make a mistake while dancing, it is more important to me to carry it off with a smile and not break the moment. To me, if no one notices the mistake, then I was perfect! -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:16 AMI'm very lucky that here in Austin, I've had teachers and dance mentors who improv, but also can teach interesting choreography. I enjoy watching improv more than choreography (for many of the reasons already mentioned), but the 1 thing that makes either version most interesting relates to the "see the dancer" qoute: I want to see the dancer's persoanlity & interpretation of the music, not just a series of technical moves. As a young dancer, I value both & want to have both skills in my "toolbox"!
While there is room for both, improv is becoming a lost art. The Friday night show at the Austin Belly Dance Convention will be all improv to live music from Sohail Kaspar & Same Issa and The Amwaj Band. And the Saturday show features the Heart of Texas Belly Dance Contest which will be all improv. More info is under topics-Austin Belly Dance Convention and at bahaia.com. -
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:27 PMWhat a pleasant surprise! I am so glad I am attending. Hope to see you there.
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Re: Old style improv v. choreo
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:11 PMI love improv dance it flows and grows with the music and as you grow as a dancer improv becomes one of the easiest ways to dance. Choreography is necessary for group dances but I will always love to improv dance even though for the competition I am choreographing parts of the songs. Belly dance did not started out as a choreographed dance it was a dance of everyday life done be everyday women.
Kahina