Is there a trick or ancient bellydance secret to doing these?! I was told either ya can do them or you cant..I hope that isnt the case. It seems to be a very frustrating move for bellydancers and I am hoping to get some insight from those who know how to do them.
How did YOU learn to do them?
Can you briefly breakdown the components?
Like most, I can get the top part to roll, but not the bottom. Even though I can *slightly* move the bottom without the top, it doesnt exactly *roll* lol.
I figured with all the experienced dancers on here that I have seen doing massive bellyrolls down and up, that maybe those of us who are attempting to learn can pick up some tips from you!
Thanks,
Isa
How did YOU learn to do them?
Can you briefly breakdown the components?
Like most, I can get the top part to roll, but not the bottom. Even though I can *slightly* move the bottom without the top, it doesnt exactly *roll* lol.
I figured with all the experienced dancers on here that I have seen doing massive bellyrolls down and up, that maybe those of us who are attempting to learn can pick up some tips from you!
Thanks,
Isa
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Florida
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sat, January 24, 2004 - 2:04 PMi think some people are just born able to do them and some people need to practice. i can do them but they are so sloppy and jerky that i really need to practice smoothing out the rolling motion.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sat, January 24, 2004 - 2:34 PMI can teach them. It's not a 'you can either do it or not' thing. Of course, for some people the learning curve is different. I start with exercises to build the necessary muscle control.
I've also been successful at teaching flutters, vibrations(aka shudders, freezes, earthquakes) and single ass-cheek shimmies.
However, Shira (www.Shira.net) has an excellent break down online I believe. No sense in duplicating efforts...but I haven't really tried to 'splain online. Best to do it in person. ;)
(I was teaching flutters and other 'tricks' in Orlando earlier this month and could be encouraged to repeat those when I'm teaching there in August again)
Then again, if I think I can put it all into words/type and make it actually readable and understandable, I'll try later. Have to get ready to head to LA for Cafe Beledy tonite. Will I see anyone from tribe there?
-Jim -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sat, January 24, 2004 - 2:52 PMBelly rolls, like shimmies and riding a bike, are just a matter of practice. Everyone has the muscles to do them, it is just a matter of accessing them, then building strength. I like to start teaching people by just having them isolate the top and bottom ab muscles for a while before turning it into a roll. Strength is a big part of it too, I find that if I don't dance for a while my rolls don't look so hot.
You just have to be patient with yourself, everyone learns different things and different speeds given the body's natural proclivities.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sat, January 24, 2004 - 7:23 PMWhat's the difference between a bellyroll and a flutter? -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 12:27 AMA flutter looks like a isolated belly shimmy. Quickest way to learn it (at least for me) is to pant like a dog... quickly. Of course you can't perform this way, but it gets you the idea. Belly roll is a slow (or quick) undulation (wave) of the stomach that either goes up or down (or side to side!). -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 12:45 AMhmmm....side to side....in your world maybe :-)
I bet that looks really neat!
I guess another good analogy for that flutter movement then would be the breath of fire from yoga. Cool - I can do that :-) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 10:37 PMThe only reason I say side to side is I know one woman that can do it. It looks AMAZING. I've never even mastered the normal stomach roll... (I know HOW to do it, I just haven't been able to get myself there yet).
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Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 2:19 AMThe main idea is to feel the rythm of the percussion..
I am from Turkey and this bellydancing thing is something genetic among us even our children can bellydance without having any special dance course:))
The thing is just let the rythm takes you and shakes your belly it isn't important how you do the feeling is important.the more you practice the more you will dance
Good Luck.. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 11:24 AMI want to be Turkish! Bellydance is hard. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Mon, January 26, 2004 - 12:28 AMthank you jessica when you are Turkish it means that you have the sense:)
of course not eygptians,indians can belly dance as we do.
But I appriciated you changing nationality:)))
as you know Turkey is one of the targetted countries nowadays...
Not trying to disturb politics...,
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:20 AMi learned bellydance from a turkish friend in europe...it was so amazingly sensual and hypnotic that i just had to be able to do it too...i did the hard core version of belly roll learning/strengthening...a bowling ball on the stomach and making it move up and down...ouch but great belly rolls out of it. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 4:22 PMnow that IS hard core!!! but I bet it really helped to have that resistance there to feel it! did you have to use a "donut" to keep the ball from rolling off? hee hee (interesting visual...)
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 11:30 AMOne of the best ways to practice is hunch over with your hands just above your knees. Really let it all hang out. Start practicing. I don't know if this will help if you don't have any of the belly roll down at all. But if you can control half of it, then this position should help you complete the roll. Also when I perform, I like to do belly rolls in my drum solo's, but I cheat. It is a little bit easier to do it when you do not have perfect belly dance posture. So I drop my chest a little bit and then I find that I can do them pretty easily. In essence you are slouching, but after a while of practicing like that you can do it without looking too slouchy.
I hope this helps. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 2:37 PMFor anyone interested in the sideways belly rolls. I have been trying to teach myself these, they are very hard. I am thinking of it like a chest circle but with out moving my chest. Like Tara said, it is easier if you lean over a little to let the belly dangle. Does anyone else have experience/tips with sideways belly rolls?
Another thing that has been helpful for me with regular rolls is to work on strengthening and isolating the lower abs in particular as, for most of us, those tend to be the most difficult to access. Pelvic lifts are good! -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Mon, January 26, 2004 - 8:55 AMI have been trying to do sidways belly rolls for some time. I saw Fahtiem, from LA area, do them and they blew my mind!! When she does them, she seems to be isolating her diaphram and doing them that way. This seems to be working for me so far. I do have some sort of sidways roll, not very polished at all, but with alot more practice, hopefully they will appear. I hope this helps. :) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Mon, January 26, 2004 - 2:49 PMWOW! Was out of town for a coupla days and came back to see all this great repoire going down;)
I can do flutters and never really had a problem with those. And I can hunch over and get my belly to roll..however...if I stand up and try to do them, you can only see the upper part and the lower isnt as defined.I have been working on exercises tightening the lower ab's while leaving the upper ones loose, then vice versa. I have also noticed that I know alot more men that can do this easily than women! (Must be all that beer;)
Its encouraging to know that with practice it will happen and its not "either you can do it now or you never will." I NEVER thought I was going to be able to do a turkish drop and now its one of my favorite drops.
I just didnt know if there are specific exercises you can do to help strengthen the lower abs that are really hard to get to work seperately?
I appreciate all the great feedback! I know this is something that alot of dancers struggle with though... -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Mon, January 26, 2004 - 6:53 PMWhat's a Turkish drop, exactly? -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Mon, January 26, 2004 - 6:59 PMPilates might be great to get into for conditioning your abs regarding bellydance, especially lower abs. i know i get great workout from it.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Tue, January 27, 2004 - 12:43 AMAs I learned from Carolena Nericcio, it's when you dramatically drop to your knees in the middle of a spin.
other styles of bellydance may have a slightly different interpretation...
:) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Tue, January 27, 2004 - 5:50 AMThe Turkish Drop is one of the most difficult of the dramatic drops to do. There are several drops that people use depending on how flexible they are and their muscle conditioning. With Turkish you go from a full spin down on your knees and lay completely back with your back on the ground. We also do layback drops where you go from a deep layback and drop completely down...there are also backbend drops and other variations. We, our troupe, use them frequently when doing alot of skirt work..or skirt turns. Otherwise we will just do floorwork without the drops. Usually you have to wear knee pads and something to cover your feet since the tops get fairly banged up at first. I dont have to use them much anymore unless I know the routine has ALOT of drops or floorwork involved.
What my goal is is to be able to drop and do bellyrolls while laying back. Have seen Jill do this and it was remarkable! Rachel also has done a variation of this before too I think?
Anyways, I am still seeking out specific exercises to use to develop and strengthen your lower ab's. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Tue, January 27, 2004 - 11:04 PMI've found that yoga was the thing that really pushd me over the top when it came to isolating my lower abs. I studied Ashtanga-Vinyasa yoga with a teacher who really focused on (I'm going to spell this phonetically, since I have no idea what the Sanskrit spelling is) oooh-lee-anda-banda. In pratical experience, that means she constantly reminded me to pull in my lower abs to better support my lower back through my practice.
Much as I hate to say it, time and practice is the only way to get those isolations working :) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Tue, January 27, 2004 - 11:37 PMah, I see!
I seem to have some vague memories of doing that spontaneously as a kid in our backyard dance performances :-)
I think I'd be pretty nervous to do a drop like that now. But I'm sure it looks great!
As for yoga, I've been a bit slack lately when it comes to ab isolation, but I've found some aspects of Kundalini very useful for torso isolation.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 4:51 PMYes, sideways bellyrolls rely on the intercostals (muscles between ribs) and obliques (wrapping around sides of waist) as well as diphragm. I learned to do both horizontal and vertical belly rolls after training as an opera singer, because proper breathing for singing DEMANDS letting go of the belly.
So, to start, think of releasing your belly and breathing into an inner tube that inflates all around your waist. That opens all muscles 360 degrees around your torso. Then it gets easier to isolate rectus abdominus (6-pack muscle) and roll it any direction you please.
Strange, but this is contrary to much advice I've noticed re: crunches etc to strengthen abs. Maybe people are thinking of finding their abs thru strength work? Seems to me strength work would limit - not enhance - range of motion necessary to perform sideways belly rolls.
Think of a rubber band. When it's stretched tight , the rubber band's mission in life is to SNAP back into place...like highly toned abs. Less tight, and the rubber band/muscle moves, grooves and CIRCLES longer.
Of course I'm saying this as a woman with far-from-washboard abs. So, you may not want to sacrifice tone to do the trick.
Tell me what YOU think - Diva Luna -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 7:51 AMYou might be right. I have really tight abs. From a young age, my mom told me to suck in my stomach - all the time. I have been doing daily crunches my whole life and lots of other abs exercises. I have pretty strong abs, and it's always been a part of my body that I can work really hard. But I have a lot of trouble with belly rolls because I have trouble letting go. I also have trouble isolating the different parts. I have been dancing for 6 years now and I still have weak belly rolls - I practice them in bed lying down. I'm coming along but I've definitely seen other people pick it up right away, with a simple explanation and they're off and rolling. It has taken me years to find the muscles and learn to isolate them, especially learning to let them relax.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 12:50 AMOne thing I've found helps to give even greater definition to the top (which will, in turn, define the bottom), is to work on isolating my ribcage/diaphragm expansion....Kinda like when you flutter by filling up w/air, expand the ribs, and learn to keep them open w/o the breath....then add to this by opening/expanding, then closing down (really tightly). You'll see the diaphragm hollow, then disappear behind the upper abs. Once you can expand, try to push *out* with the diaphragm...if you add this element to the top part of your roll, and the super tight squeeze of the ribs when you are releasing the bottom, you'll see more shape to it....
Of course, I agree w/the previous threads re: lower abs....hard to work, but totally necessary.
I just thought of one last thing....lying down and practicing seems to help, I think because your ab muscles aren't engaged in keeping your torso upright...then you can lay your hands on your belly to feel the move... -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 3:55 AMI can totally do them lying down! Once I stand up though they are much less apparent;( I can do 'em, they are just little and dont look like the exagerrated ones I have seen Rach and them do lol. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 7:44 AMMe too! Laying down only! And occasionally standing up, laughing, and not paying attention...then suddenly I look in the mirror and go, "There's one! Do it again!" and then I can't.
Frustrated Flower!!!;) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 9:19 AMTry them in the bathtub full of water. Something about the wave you set up and getting the rhythm and thinking the action of the muscle group.
Hard to explain, but it works. Try it. Really.
Bubblebath option
Now don't you deserve a bubblebath today? -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 9:55 AMUnfortunately, neither John nor I have bathtubs.
I'm not tooooooo worried about it though. I think if I'm meant to ever do them, it will come.
If you dance, it will come.
That sounds weird! -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 10:14 AMIt took me awhile to learn belly rolls. If I remember correctly, it was 4-8 months or so (it was 10 years ago...forgive my brain cells).
So be patient!
The thing that finally got me over the edge when I decided I WAS going to learn them, was that I practiced. Constantly. I would most often do it in line at the bank, the grocery store, the ATM, etc. I would giggle to myself thinking that people would think I was on an Alien space cruiser and ready to bust a screamer out my chest.
Course, I'm known to do this. That's how I learned flutters, and most recently (in the past year doing it really well and consistently): single buttcheek shimmies. It's an interesting thought that comes to me when I'm mindlessly bouncing one buttcheek in line at Albertsons. I'm 6'2", 240#, tattooed and shaved bald...and bouncing my buttcheeks. <ahem> So when I realize I'm doing it, I stop...look over my shoulder..."Did anyone see that?!?"
bouncity bouncity bouncity bounce
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 10:46 AMHey Jim,
Can I corner you backstage at the April show for a quicky on the single butt cheek shimmy???? hardee har har har
I've been looking for someone for so long to teach me this, I love the way it looks! And I solemly promise that I will practice them in line at the grocery store in your honor! -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:05 AMLOL Sure, you can. One butt cheek quickie coming up!
I'll show you the <ahem> exercises I used. It's an interesting thing to try to wrap your head around, but once you start them, they're quite difficult to put down. You can see them in action at the show, BTW. heh heh
A great resource is Anaheed. She is credited by many for being the source of this, although I learned it long before I knew her. -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:11 AMYou know what else is fun? Trying out different shimmies while pushing the cart around the grocery store! I used to do this in my old job- I worked in a printing plant and had to deliver materials to all the different departments on these carts (not like shopping carts, but the same handles), and I'd walk into the print room, shakin' my bootay, but it didn't matter- only the ink ladies would see me do it 'cause all the print guys were looking at their presses. Go figure.
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 2:52 PMI actually learned to do them from a stripper friend of mine! I never had problems with flutters or shimmies, but these belly rolls stump me and tons of dancers. It seems men do them alot easier then women...guess I need a beer gut LOL! -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 4:21 PMnow...that wasn't sexist at all.
nope
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:16 AMToo funny!
I could do top to bottom naturally, but bottom to top was impossible. It was the same for me - I just decided to do it. I was also dancing with someone who wanted to add a lot of body waves into a choreography, and I felt like I really needed the bottom to top roll to be able to do a body wave really well, so I just worked and worked and worked! -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Wed, April 14, 2004 - 1:11 PMsideways belly rolls...
i'm a guy and could do these first time i tried. (rolls eyes)
try doing the bottom half of a belly roll and at the same time do a lower rib circle slide motion and also umi roll the hips ever so slightly. try that until you get something like a sideways roll, then try isolating the movements down bit by bit until you can do either the rib slide or the umi and get a reaction, then isolate even furhter!
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 10:05 AMthis made me laugh out loud! really look forward to meeting you at Jwaad summer school in August.... I find I can only do bellyrolls in a bubblebath.... : ) (lazy hedonists anonymous)
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Re: Belly Rolls
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 9:29 PMI tried this a few times, but my flutters are super strong, it's my lower abdomen that I can't get control over, I guess it's back to the tub!!!
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, January 20, 2006 - 8:24 AMIsa, I wanted to add to this too... I think your original post was quite some time ago so the DVD might not have been out yet. If you don't already have Rachel Brice's isolations DVD I highly recommend it. She goes over body waves and rolls in GREAT detail. If you have NetFlix you can rent it.. but it's worth buying. I think I've seen it for as little as $8 on ebay/amazon. :) -
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Re: Belly Rolls
Fri, January 20, 2006 - 8:45 AM"One butt cheek quickie coming up! "
I'd sooooooo pay to see this!!! Where do I buy my ticket??
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Re: Belly Rolls
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 2:33 PMThis video helped me the most
www.youtube.com/watch
I had heard a lot about ab isolation and it was all a little confusing until I saw this. It helps when doing a belly roll to focus on the belly button. I practice one at a time pulling my belly button inward, then, up and slowly around, like making a circle with my belly button basically, and I found that as I do these moves from the belly button, the appropriate group of ab muscles tend to follow in lock step.
Hope this helps.
