http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#41070784-d3b3-41b9-b7b0-835f33fb795e "has anybody encountered this attitude as well?" YOu know, I don't understand that at all. I was introduced to bellydance - male and female - by an exboyfriend and most of the men I know have no problems with it with either men or women, neither do my women friends have problems with bellydancers, male or female. My mom does, but she's that way. Some of my male friends are insecure with dancing period, but it's about their own insecurities dancing - not directed at anyone else. Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:28:31 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#41070784-d3b3-41b9-b7b0-835f33fb795e PQR 2005-08-31T23:28:31Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8d089b80-2129-4597-a9cc-6427193ea74d Isis in bedford texas offers male belly dance classes...the class for beginning men is an all male class and the current teacher, Shadid, is a former marine.. i've been dancing/ learning with Isis since 1998...it's a blast. the only issue i usually run into as a male belly dancer is the apparently common misconception that only gay men dance. tends to make a lot of men reluctant to give it a try. Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:21:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8d089b80-2129-4597-a9cc-6427193ea74d desmond 2005-08-31T22:21:39Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#23861917-99bd-495d-a911-628f8e181e87 shake it-don't care if its guy or girl-I enjoy a good dancer!!!Erika Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:45:23 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#23861917-99bd-495d-a911-628f8e181e87 erika 2005-08-30T20:45:23Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a1843042-d907-4a4f-b0e8-98db5db887af Jim Boz, San Diego. http://www.jimboz.com/ Never been to a strip show but the energy Jim Boz puts off is what I would imagine the energy would be for a Chippendale's performance. Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:44:38 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a1843042-d907-4a4f-b0e8-98db5db887af Orange 2005-08-29T14:44:38Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#3e840af1-bae6-4e05-919d-dd24d26fce02 Thank you for mentioning me Witchy - DaVid of Scandinavia :) Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:32:45 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#3e840af1-bae6-4e05-919d-dd24d26fce02 DaVid 2005-08-29T07:32:45Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#c5da7e85-224d-499e-8ba8-5edcead38d2c Hi Naked! *waving frantically!* There are two male belly dancers in the DC area- one, Mark Balahadia is on tribe. He studies very hard, gigs in the places that accept male dancers and organizes events which provide him with more opportunities to perform. He's really fantastic, captivating and adorable to watch. His main teacher is (the fantastic) Artemis Mourat - who is very accepting. Mark keeps his dancing rather feminine in a strong Lebanese style, which suits him. The other male dancer we have around here is a little more masculine in his style, although I rarely see him perform. I love having guys in class. I think most of the teachers in this area accept them. All the other issues and big names have been mentioned on here. Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:34:41 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#c5da7e85-224d-499e-8ba8-5edcead38d2c Samira 2005-08-28T12:34:41Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#f2124dd1-4c4d-4592-b650-aba75a2e29b4 Hi Lotus, wouldn't it be just wonderful to just let your son do belly dance if he wants to? Why first let him do other dance forms if this is the form he tends to already? Well, for the guys doing belly dance thing, I think it also counts for other forms of dance. Although we live in a western civilization, where we say since a few decades men and women are equal, just look around you to see that it doesn't mix that well yet. Still, there aren't a lot of women in top business positions. And certain jobs that were either male or female dominated, still are. Same goes for dance, a lot of dance forms are still female dominated. Music? The music scene in general is male dominated (I'm not talking about singing here). Martial Arts? Male dominated. Ok, it's all blending, a process that will take a while I guess. Let me give you an example: When I was younger, I did jazz ballet: no boys at all. There were one or two who attended a class once. As kids, we weren't really aware yet of this boy girl thing, so it wasn't something that we thought about. I also did judo and pencak silat (an Indonesian martial art). Let me say this: when the other girl left judo, I was the only girl left in class. I think I was nine then. Not old enough for me to care a lot, but I started to notice that some things were just different, in the end to the point where it made me feel uncomfortable, like dressing up in the same room, and I also got in some nasty arguments where I had to lay back, because I knew as a nine year old girl, I just wasn't as strong as the boys I had the argument with. I was a lot older when I did pencak silat, and I was one of the four girls, in a group of eh... thirty or something. We had three teachers, who were also male. In the beginning it was always like: 'I'm not going to fight with you, because you are a girl', until they saw you were serious. Also, people think you are lesbian if you're doing a 'male thing' and in the case of male dancers, they usually think you're gay. Well, that's another prejudice some of us have to deal with (and hey, some people áre gay, so what?). This may sound a bit strange because I'm a girl, but I can imagine how it must feel for a guy in a female dominated dance group. Especially since I have likewise experiences (as a girl in male orientated groups). As for the drummer thing, I'm a woman and I'm a flamenco percussionist. Which is also looked upon as weird. I have a female friend who is a bass guitarist and a female friend who's a flamenco guitarist. And people always go a bit like 'Aaaah... A girl!' When I step into a room, people always conclude that I must be a flamenco dancer! They also ask me if I either flamenco dance, or sing. Until they see me getting out the drum box. Then they think: 'Hmm, she probably can't play.' Until they hear that I can. Little sigh... The girl who plays flamenco guitar also gets this reaction. I've noticed this is even more the case if you are a young and attractive girl. If you look like half a guy, they assume you can play the guitar or drum box well... So in flamenco, as in belly dance, you have the same problems: I did join flamenco dance classes for a period, and as a percussionist, I play with flamenco musicians ánd dancers, and the dancers I work with and danced with in class, were all women. There hardly aren't any male amateur dancers (and in the professional scene, there are some, but still, it's dominated mostly by women). Just as in belly dance, you are lucky if you see a guy in a group, and then he immediately draws all the attention to him just because he's a guy, not because he's a good dancer per se. So what I'm saying I guess, first a person is a person, and then in the second place, a man or a woman. As a person, you have dreams and wishes, and I'd say, just follow them, it doesn't matter if what you're doing is a male or female thing in the opinion of others. If men want to belly dance, please do so. I'd love to see some male dancers in my class! There are always people who have judgements or problems with it or think something of you, whatever it is that you do. That's their problem. Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:38:03 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#f2124dd1-4c4d-4592-b650-aba75a2e29b4 Princess Judy 2005-08-28T10:38:03Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b08258ab-435d-44ca-be32-4bcf243f69d2 I've heard that story about John Compton and Jamila too. If that's the way it went down, then Jamila certainly has changed. She has been nothing but accepting and supportive of me. I'm in the midst of performing right now at the Utah Bellydance Festival. There are essentially three receptions I get, here and most places: 1. I'm accepted as a dancer- neither male or female, particularly, but a dancer. 2. I'm given the cold shoulder, presumably because I'm a male. 3. I'm treated like a sex object by females in attendance. I guess the second and third items are both sexist, although I admit item #3 isn't quite so annoying as being ignored. Someone told me once that as a male belly dancer, you have to be better than most of the females to get respect. But I think the best path is just to do your thing, dance your dance, and if they respect you, fine. If not, guess it's their problem. Sun, 28 Aug 2005 07:39:09 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b08258ab-435d-44ca-be32-4bcf243f69d2 Rick 2005-08-28T07:39:09Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#51cf58a1-915e-4233-b51a-860d3bc22aa9 "Why should belly dance be a point of gender controversy? Probably because some people who have issues for which they need counseling keep bringing it up." From what I've observed and read, it's not a psychology issue, more of a sociology issue. Hmm. You reference Suhalia. And Suhalia's mom has something to do with the crux of the issue -- but I'll get to that, in a moment. First, you have to grasp that there's a cultural issue "over there" with male dance in a "performance" context. And I say that in full knowledge that the Middle and Near east is not a homogeneous zone of sameness, yet there is a general thread about Islam not looking kindly on dance. And, in part because of that, male dancers are not as respected as female dancers, since men are expected to hold to a higher standard. And given that female dancers get Rodeny Dangerfielded all the damn time in the Middle East, that means a lot. The best in-depth analysis I've read is actually online: http://www.provincia.venezia.it/levi/ma/index/number3/nieuwkerk/karin_0.htm This is her followup to the classic work "A Trade Like Any Other: Female Singers And Dancers In Egypt". Now, I can gab on about how this all translates into a Western context, but I've already written, and posted, about that as well in an article I linked back to in this thread. Plus, you should read Tarik's take on the matter, also posted in this thread. The short form is that we, as Westerners, have been acculturated to think of this dance as woman-centric. Not just focused, but to the point where a male is seen as an aberration, and even an invader of WomanSpace. In that cultural context, it's not a surprise that male dancers are reacted to in the myriad of ways we've seen. But it's not a "certain people are crazy" bit, it's that some people buy more strongly into that aspect of this dance as a thing for women, and react accordingly. Such as, apparently, Suhalia's mom Jamila. Now, there's two sides to every tale, and certainly this occurred a long time ago, either way. Yet it's impressive to underline how far the situation has come, to say that, in an interview some years ago with Zaghareet magazine, John Compton told the story of how much work it took to get Jamila to accept him as a student. And he made it clear that the rejection was gender-based, from his POV. And, from what I'm told, her reaction was not uncommon during that timeframe. It's been a slow, and sometimes painful, evolution since then. Does that make more sense? ---asim, Big, Strong, Movey kind of dancer. *grin* Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:53:44 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#51cf58a1-915e-4233-b51a-860d3bc22aa9 Woodrow 2005-08-28T00:53:44Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#d6bd666d-fb2a-4e7e-b08b-086221d71d25 I don't understand the Pensic reference, but here is my take: Find a way to take class with Suhaila Salimpour. If you are serious, you will love it. If you're not serious... I am absolutely convinced that for an athletic male body her style is absolutely the best. It also doesn't hurt to have other dance training in ballet, jazz, or modern dance. But that's not absolutely necessary. Her style is the most physical and grounded I've experienced, and I started in 1997, with a male teacher. Most other male belly dancers dance too "small" in my opinion. I like big strong movers, whether it's ballet, contemporary, or belly dance. If you are male or female, and have muscle mass, why in hell would you move in a way that minimizes it? But that's how a lot of male belly dancers look, to me. Wimpy. You also won't find any difference in how you are treated at Suhaila's school. If I ever thought anyone was dissing me there because I'm a man, I'd go straight to Suhaila about it. Of course they won't, now, because I'm getting good. Thanks to Suhaila. And...I really think the whole discussion of "men in middle eastern dance." Should be put to bed, once and for all. Women and men have been dancing together in ballet, jazz, and contemporary dance as equals for many, many years. Ballet and jazz, by the way, were started by males. Why should belly dance be a point of gender controversy? Probably because some people who have issues for which they need counseling keep bringing it up. Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:49:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#d6bd666d-fb2a-4e7e-b08b-086221d71d25 Rick 2005-08-27T07:49:39Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#5a5fb6e6-7662-4141-9d35-cf60291deec2 Just FYI: raksstorm.org is going the way of the dodo soon. If you want to read my link, I recommend the visiting of APOSTATE 2.0: http://raqsstorm.org/apostate/?p=17 Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:01:58 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#5a5fb6e6-7662-4141-9d35-cf60291deec2 Woodrow 2005-08-27T00:01:58Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8e0259f0-c147-4ad4-9024-0bdc35c7a650 I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this is a duplicate but here is the link to the yahoo group for male belly dancers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malebellydancersforum/ They guys on there are awesome, they even put up with me a girl lol. Tons of great info, tons of controversial discussion and tons of fun! Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:29:13 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8e0259f0-c147-4ad4-9024-0bdc35c7a650 Aurelia (mouse) 2005-04-05T14:29:13Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b1e999db-7baf-4d1d-aea4-b7d683001751 Where did you start your training and with whom? Was she/he eager to take on a male student? Tue, 05 Apr 2005 05:15:40 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b1e999db-7baf-4d1d-aea4-b7d683001751 Minya 2005-04-05T05:15:40Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b5a5d3c0-512d-4523-b041-15625e2d1b94 >>And with being a threat -- ....Really....I'm trying....just can't seem to picture Woodrow in a "threatening" manner...LOL Smiles! PS - I'll miss you at Spirit this year, Asim! Have a stroll on the beach for me please :) Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:58:50 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b5a5d3c0-512d-4523-b041-15625e2d1b94 Wendy 2005-04-04T14:58:50Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#3df20f24-10d6-498a-9953-a0f94e6522f5 I second Rassi's post! Raymere is an excellent male bellydancer and a very sweet man. He lives in Columbus, Ohio and his website is www.raymere.com. Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:40:31 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#3df20f24-10d6-498a-9953-a0f94e6522f5 Lauralana 2005-03-30T20:40:31Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8abc74f1-a0c9-4c5b-9151-f412106a60bd Here's a thought Shawn, travel; learn all you can, and take it back up to Vegas and start your own troupe. In the land of entertainment you should find enough male support to be successful. Male Bellydancers Unite! Good Luck Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:41:35 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#8abc74f1-a0c9-4c5b-9151-f412106a60bd Sabra 2005-03-30T19:41:35Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b1451a82-2825-4c33-ad57-008d14a6c76f I didn't read your linl so I don't know if you mention him at all, but: "men need an identity. Women come into this dance with a built-in ideal of what they'd like to look like, dance like. They have easily-accessible role models, in other words. Men rarely have that, nor do they have a support system" The father of Western Raqs Sharqi: Ibrahim Farrar. He and Jamila Salimpour started the first schools here. His style is the basic Egyptian and Lebanese style that most American dancers have come to know. He has trained many Internationally known dancers. So the Oriental "woman's" dance that we are learning is from him. HIM. He and another him, Mahmoud Reda, who started the first Egyptian National Folkloric dance group, are two of the largest influences on our feminine moves and style. So uber-feminists, awake yourselves, much of what you have learned has come from men! Woodrow, if more men focused on these roots of the dance in America, they might be inspired and more likely to try it. Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:07:01 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b1451a82-2825-4c33-ad57-008d14a6c76f Melanie 2005-03-28T22:07:01Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#710fe755-793d-4926-9576-087a5c3cc728 EVIL! LOL you are an evil tease! I could like you alot! Hugs! Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:17:58 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#710fe755-793d-4926-9576-087a5c3cc728 Witchy 2005-03-28T19:17:58Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e2b405fe-59d4-47f5-acb7-f5776898fc4f Shawn, Male belly dancers are wonderful!! Married to one, taken classes from/with them, dance with them and couldn't imagine life without my brothers. Have you seen the Men of Middle Eastern Dance tribe here? Think there are only have 17 members (I'm one) but there are some really great men on there inc. Jim & Asim. Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:00:11 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e2b405fe-59d4-47f5-acb7-f5776898fc4f Jemira 2005-03-28T02:00:11Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#d6f3a0df-8107-47b5-8cfa-ada631694c28 "So Asim: have you ever gotten that "whose drummer are you?" :)" If I had a dime for every time, I'd be a full-time dancer right bloody now. :) Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:02:44 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#d6f3a0df-8107-47b5-8cfa-ada631694c28 Woodrow 2005-03-28T01:02:44Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#4ae90377-5aef-46ba-b011-f3cb8ecb5fa3 "So...how can we, as female dancers, make this more guy friendly? " Man, I so want to quote Malcolm X right now -- it's killing me! Seriously. There are plenty enough of women who are supporters of men dancing, and I've been terribly grateful to more than a handful of them. The problem is systemic to the entire dance, and goes pretty deep. Instead of ranting about them here, I just dropped a post into my dance blog: http://www.raksstorm.org/places/Apostate/arch/002525.html#more Which desperately needed an update, anyway. :) So, having said all that, I'd say the solutions are damn hard. The concept of "women's safe space" is _tightly_ ingrained into Western raqs. And the concepts regarding male dancers "over there" don't help at all. What I'd say is that you have to start promoting the ideal that raqs is for everyone on a wider scale. Maybe I should make up some "Everyone deserves a chance to raqs" t-shirts, to get the ball rolling, hmm? Find some places to write into. Also -- men need an identity. Women come into this dance with a built-in ideal of what they'd like to look like, dance like. They have easily-accessible role models, in other words. Men rarely have that, nor do they have a support system, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Without dancers to travel with, split rooms with, and basically let their hair down with, you'll never get past Stage one without a LOT of effort. Imagine trying to learn dance without your friends to chat with, support you, and hang out with you. That's just one aspect of how hard it is for guys to learn to dance. And every time you treat a guy like a token, or the "weird bit", or anything where he has to stand out, he's that much closer to not wanting to have anything to do with the situation. You have to deal with guy dancers as Dancers above all else, else there is no real respect. Make sense, everyone? Hmm. It concerns me that I've never really put a lot of thought into how to fix the problem on a wide basis. Ideas -- Are -- Welcome! Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:00:23 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#4ae90377-5aef-46ba-b011-f3cb8ecb5fa3 Woodrow 2005-03-28T01:00:23Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e91a4758-c524-4634-ac0a-ee7fee1cd760 "You so can't leave a tidbit like that hanging out there with out further explanation! " Eh? Of course I can. It's easy. Watch me do it right now, in fact. :) ---shamelessly evil, teasin' asim Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:51:56 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e91a4758-c524-4634-ac0a-ee7fee1cd760 Woodrow 2005-03-27T23:51:56Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6f20d03e-c6e4-48b7-9113-ca3931a2e44c Classy male dancers who dressed fully clothed :) Zorba of California...check out his website Shawn for lots of information about male belly dancing. www.doubleveil.net Raymere of Ohio...a new star on the horizon. He has excellent isolations. Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:04:33 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6f20d03e-c6e4-48b7-9113-ca3931a2e44c Rassi 2005-03-27T15:04:33Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#5f30990c-1ec1-400e-bae5-c05611eb2875 I taught a huge "introductory" workshop for the local University -- and there were about four or five guys (in a class of 60). They were really game -- not just there to ogle the girls and really trying to get the moves right. The girls heckled them a little, but they worked hard and seemed to really enjoy it. It was sweet! So Asim: have you ever gotten that "whose drummer are you?" :) Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:57:04 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#5f30990c-1ec1-400e-bae5-c05611eb2875 Claire 2005-03-26T20:57:04Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a7f15e42-9b83-4983-a67c-2b25e31ed60a << teach someone interested in Egyptian Raqs Shaquri the basics of the dance? >> Yes, that's not a problem. I do that now. <<and the ATS format avoids many of the cute moves that tend to be the focus of male re-workings of the dance. >> That's so true! <<Teaching him to "dance like a guy" should be second to teaching him to dance as a person; focus on the latter and you'll do fine. >> Thanks! I promise I'll remember to focus on the person and not the gender. Okay, tribe, can I call "do over" on this question? I'm feeling a little more confident, thanks to a certain male dancer! Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:56:32 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a7f15e42-9b83-4983-a67c-2b25e31ed60a Kali 2005-03-26T02:56:32Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#ecb78997-7744-44b9-8c87-6dfa98dd8c31 "I don't know if I know how to teach a male to dance." Here's a question. Can you, a ATS instructor (I'm assuming), teach someone interested in Egyptian Raqs Shaquri the basics of the dance? I'd say of course; the basic movement vocabulary is the same, even if the specifics of what you do with them differ. Sure, there are a few moves that men tend to focus on, on average, the tight shimmies being one of them. But it's not the _core_ of what we do as raqs dancers -- ATS, Gothic, Egyptian, Turkish, and so on. Good posture tends to be the same, although there are differences, such as foot stance. People are people. If a guy is in the class, he's there to learn to dance much like you, in most cases, and the ATS format avoids many of the cute moves that tend to be the focus of male re-workings of the dance. Teaching him to "dance like a guy" should be second to teaching him to dance as a person; focus on the latter and you'll do fine. Take it from someone who's spent over a decade working out these issues, for better and worse. :) Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:40:35 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#ecb78997-7744-44b9-8c87-6dfa98dd8c31 Woodrow 2005-03-26T02:40:35Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9beefe44-0c15-4c29-b790-6b3cb94886e9 Yes, I think there are two sides as well... Here is another. I don't know if I know how to teach a male to dance. And I'm not talking about the moves--that's the easy part. But I've attended some of the Greek Haflas and even though I saw the men do almost every move that the women do, there was a difference! For instance, I saw the men do shoulder shimmies--however, they were more like the Congalese shimmies--fast and tight nearly a vibration!!! Awesome!!! And the jumps a leaps were like the Nigerian dance classes I've taken. And their hands were different--more open, flat palmed or fists. I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd need to take a few classes myself or at least have some good resources to turn to for help. ::smiling:: We'd have to learn together. But if a man showed up wanting to learn, I would accept him with open arms, but let him know that he and I would need to seek outside resources. Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:55:50 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9beefe44-0c15-4c29-b790-6b3cb94886e9 Kali 2005-03-26T00:55:50Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9f4cb2c5-f1a8-40a0-95b1-f08b94b3467d LOL, Naked is what my friends call me. Tho I was dfancing at Pensic in some harem pants that are mostly see thru and got a lot of attention at the parties I was at :) I have a killer shimmy Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:58:26 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9f4cb2c5-f1a8-40a0-95b1-f08b94b3467d Shawn 2005-03-25T23:58:26Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#abc0fe5a-1759-40b3-825d-d8bf3d92cc96 Hmm... this reminds me of the Good Naked vs. Bad Naked debate on Seinfeld. Big love to the brothers out there, but I just don't wanna see ya bellydance naked. ;) Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:18:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#abc0fe5a-1759-40b3-825d-d8bf3d92cc96 emily 2005-03-25T21:18:39Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#64fce38a-9f53-47b5-9ac0-c28ca237d743 "And as a discussion thread what do you all think of male belly dancers? Naked" That would be very interesting, I happen to know what female bellydancers look like naked ;) - but I have yet to see a male shimmy/vibration in the nude... hmmmm...very interesting indeed. Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:43:06 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#64fce38a-9f53-47b5-9ac0-c28ca237d743 Shawna 2005-03-25T20:43:06Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#dc9ac2a6-55a7-4ed7-ae00-38bd222a0b6d Wow! I was so surprised to hear of this sort of thing...we haven't got any male students at my teacher's studio (but I heard there was one before my time) who do Middle Eastern, although my teacher's husband is part of the Polynesian troupe. A lot of us have wished that we could get men interested in joining! I guess at our studio, the dynamic is as follows: the women dance and run the show, the men drum and schlep. At parties, the women tend gather in one area, and the men gather in another, all of its own accord. That makes me wonder which group a male dancer would end up gravitating towards. The ladies in my troupe are big John Compton, Tarik Sultan, and Jim Boz groupies, and I have a well-known *thing* for male Greek dancers. I was recently at a workshop with about three million ladies and one young man, maybe seventeen or so. I saw him before the class started and assumed he was a budding drummer who'd been dragged by a mom, sister, or girlfriend. I was surprised to see him put on a hipscarf!! During the workshop, I remember thinking that his line was *beautiful* but his hipwork was all over the place. Later I went up to him and said, not unkindly (I hope!) "Hi there. When I first saw you, I thought, "I wonder whose drummer he is."" I found out later through the grapevine that he was a student of ballet with no M.E. dance experience, who was doing this for a project. The teacher, a guy, later showed him lots of guy stuff, which I thought was sweet. So...how can we, as female dancers, make this more guy friendly? I'd love to see more male students. Actually, when guys compliment us after the show, I always pipe up, "You can take lessons, too! This dance is for EVERYBODY!" which usually scares them away. Wah! So...to my brothers in dance, what would you like to see happening? -LbH Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:39:14 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#dc9ac2a6-55a7-4ed7-ae00-38bd222a0b6d Laila 2005-03-25T20:39:14Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e254f59e-e5a9-44f2-ad43-f80848723f30 I am a member of a tribe for the group Isidis, you can check in my profile. These two young men decided they wanted to try something different than the troupe they were in, and started their own tribal-style troupe. They are in high school, and I must say they RAQ!! They are personable, bright young guys and excellent dancers. They are the next generation of male bellydancers and I have great hopes for the future!!! Yay for the Bellymen! Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:20:27 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#e254f59e-e5a9-44f2-ad43-f80848723f30 Princess Amy 2005-03-25T19:20:27Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6c4387b5-4e2d-49b0-b7fd-7efdae91ca67 Ok Woodrow. I'll bite. "On a side note, remind me to tell you, sometime, the story about the Dianist Wiccan who approached me after I co-taught a Ghawazee History class. You'd get a kick out of it." You so can't leave a tidbit like that hanging out there with out further explanation! Keep Rakin' Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:48:09 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6c4387b5-4e2d-49b0-b7fd-7efdae91ca67 Witchy 2005-03-25T16:48:09Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b565ee2c-6fd6-458f-9e11-d3997cf15dac I'm with Stefi on this one. I love it that we have some guys in our begining class. Every guy that we have had in class (even the ones that haven't stuck with it) have been ver cool, and easy to get along with. No creeps in our classes! LOL It's also interesting to see the diferent styles and flavors that are available to guys with in the movement vocabulary. Definately needs a diferent teaching style, and it's educational for the rest of us. It is another side of the culture that we can delve into. Having gentlemen in class adds another demention to our understanding of the dance and culture that it comes from. And it opens up a lot of topics for discussion that wouldn't come up otherwise. I say hooray for any guy willing to brave surfing the estrogen wave with all of us in class! Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:58:30 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#b565ee2c-6fd6-458f-9e11-d3997cf15dac Witchy 2005-03-25T07:58:30Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9bce1534-af16-4d38-85fd-c2540ff4ce94 YOU GUYS ROCK! I"ve run into those barriers a lot locally, hence the post. In SF and Pensic I saw a lot of male belly dancers and even saw some of them dancing is a differnt style, waay hot. Only in the last month has one of the local teachers that I approached about this come back to me a year later and said that if I still wanted into her class that she had talked to the whole class and I was welcome to attend most of the classes now tho there would still benights that I'd be asked to not come :s As these are actually friends of mine I was a bit curious about the dynamic behind the curtain as it were and you guys have given me some clear insight in to some of that, thanks/ And as to Dancing being for girls and some dad's having an issue with that, you may just want to point out that the guys who are out there dancing seldom go home alone and are in fact considered rather studly by most of the female population. You might also mention that some of the indian forms of belly dancing are actually fighting styles cloaked as dancing. As for me, it's all about the dance. I never feel quite so alive as when I'm moving. Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:56:17 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#9bce1534-af16-4d38-85fd-c2540ff4ce94 Shawn 2005-03-25T07:56:17Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#f696551a-3d91-4a65-8b8b-c3afefcfeae6 Sorry, link didn't show up fully: http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=menofmiddleeaste Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:06:31 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#f696551a-3d91-4a65-8b8b-c3afefcfeae6 MEISSOUN 2005-03-25T07:06:31Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#7ed5c195-58bd-414c-9e10-d6c04e8f87df Link: http://www.menofmiddleeasterndance.com/ Besides this, there's a web ring: http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=menofmiddleeaste And there are quite some good male dancers in Germany. MEISSOUN Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:05:36 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#7ed5c195-58bd-414c-9e10-d6c04e8f87df MEISSOUN 2005-03-25T07:05:36Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#4b3763f6-9d7d-42ed-a11f-ec6e042ea4ef We're in hiding. And I'm only slightly joking. It's a matter of numbers. I know they are rare on the ground to begin with. And, frankly, the community as a whole doesn't do much to support them -- I'm very lucky that you guys are cool with me hangin' around and stuff. Most guys don't make it to the bonding stage that many dancers need to really feel comfortable progressing in this style; it's not like, say, Ballet, where the path is well-laid out. And yes, most women don't, either, but when you're running 100 women to 1 man, it's a huge difference. "has anybody encountered this attitude as well? " No, NEVER! *smirk* It's a LOT better than when I first started. And even recently...there was one teacher at Pennsic who refused men into her dance classes; she doesn't even attend anymore, so far as I know. And yes, I've had to tread softly, at times. I remember calling to see if I could attend dance classes for the first time...at Smith College, under the reciprocal agreement they have with the college I attended. Scared out of my ass, but I made that call -- and it lead into all this. The barriers are huge for male dancers, in ways that are difficult to speak on, and I struggle with ways to fix that. One reason is because I (and most of the male dancers I know) are just plain socialized to avoid rockin' the boat too much, to avoid making the female dancers upset in any way. Another related one is that they really do drive into a lot of people's visions of the dance as a feminist archetype, a "safe space" for women to explore their femininity, and the presence of men as an active part of that process (as opposed to "passive bystanders/audience") is a threat, and even , for some, an insult. And being a male dancer, in part, is being OK with 2nd class citizen, or even token, status. And with being a threat -- esp. when you're 6'4" and black. *smirk* And with learning to find ways to fit into a system that's, frankly, built for people with an extra leg on the 23rd chromosome. But I'm babbling now, and that's a whole paper in itself. On a side note, remind me to tell you, sometime, the story about the Dianist Wiccan who approached me after I co-taught a Ghawazee History class. You'd get a kick out of it. Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:52:49 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#4b3763f6-9d7d-42ed-a11f-ec6e042ea4ef Woodrow 2005-03-24T23:52:49Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#93e9030e-3834-4097-a337-56725f046617 I think the negative connotation of men in belly dance is what keeps so many men away. One of my sons desperately wants to dance with me. I have been advised to start him off in other dance forms first and then integrate him into our dance. The problem that I have encountered is that my husband sees it as such a feminine art form. He doesn't have a problem with other male dancers, but his son? It's a whole other story, unfortunately. So per the advice I have received, I am moving him into other dance forms, and when he continues to show interest, will integrate him into belly dance regardless. Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:56:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#93e9030e-3834-4097-a337-56725f046617 Noel 2005-03-24T22:56:39Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#acc13339-3abe-469a-b766-9108fb994279 I know that on May 7th there is going to be a "Men of the Middle East Festival" in San Diego. I'm sure Jim Boz has a link to it on his website. I will be taking my sons..., so you may want to venture south. Good Luck, Sabra Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:06:50 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#acc13339-3abe-469a-b766-9108fb994279 Sabra 2005-03-24T22:06:50Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#2daeea2b-3027-4e0e-9203-319b8b0041a2 Heya Claire ;-) I think there are two sides to this - first, I really enjoy having a male fellow student in class (waves to Norm!). It adds to the atmosphere, and it's quite cool to have a male around who is man enough to bellydance. I have to admit that having a cute guy in class tends to hit my vanity, and makes me work just a little harder - very wlecome side effect. But, there is also a trade-off - it's kinda fun to let all hang out in an all-female environment, and having a male around interferes with that. E.g., if it comes to changing, I can't just take off my clothes anymore - it's not even that I mind for my own sake, but I am way too worried to make a male unformtable by flashing him. Or, certain girls-only talk is also not all that appropriate in mixed-gender environment. I am definitely more concerned about not misbehaving when he is in class. Overall, for me, the positives by far outweigh the negatives, but I can see that for some women, the balance may be different. -- S. Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:52:08 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#2daeea2b-3027-4e0e-9203-319b8b0041a2 Şteffi 2005-03-24T19:52:08Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6fa43904-154f-4c5b-b3e8-b69683108917 There is a teacher I know of that is uncomfortable teaching men to dance. I don't think she says this publicly, and she will accept men into her classes. Its just one of her personal issues for some reason. And the midwest does have a few male amateur dancers. I can think of 5 or 6 in Missouri and Illinois alone. I don't think they make a big deal out of it, I think they are mostly in it for the fun of dancing, but I have seen them perform in the region. Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:07:11 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6fa43904-154f-4c5b-b3e8-b69683108917 Zareen 2005-03-24T18:07:11Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#36ed2dae-ba1f-4a45-8fb9-072b1333bdd5 It may be a gross generalization but I'd think that a man comfortable enough with himself to take belly dance classes is not going to create a negative atmosphere for the female students... Not that men can't sometimes be creepy and weird, but I just can't see the creepy/weird type actually being willing to take a class. Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:57:29 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#36ed2dae-ba1f-4a45-8fb9-072b1333bdd5 Sara 2005-03-24T17:57:29Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a4216973-08ec-4672-8822-8e5b119d44c4 You know, this is the question I get so often in my classes, it really makes me wonder...where are all the male bellydancers? I KNOW there must be some mroe of them out there. Aside from the fabulous ones like John and Horacio and so forth. Where are the amateur level ones? Hmmm... A friend of mine, who is an excellent dancer and a wonderful person, took classes from a well-known dance teacher in Toronto. After one of the classes, he overheard another student telling his teacher that she didn't appreciate there being a man in the class, since bellydancing was "women-only space" and she didn't feel comfortable with male energy or something. The teacher told her to get over it. has anybody encountered this attitude as well? It seemed so weird and anti-bellydance (like, accepting and cool and self-loving) for someone to say that, but I've run into a lot of "womyn-power" dancers as well... Claire www.khafif.com Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:50:26 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#a4216973-08ec-4672-8822-8e5b119d44c4 Claire 2005-03-24T17:50:26Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#bc2ab1d5-6549-493a-8962-5daf0c637f9e Tarik Sultan, who is the protege of Morocco, teaches workshops with her. He's also got an article about male dancers on the website: www.casbahdance.org under "articles" Happy dancing!! Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:11:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#bc2ab1d5-6549-493a-8962-5daf0c637f9e Laila 2005-03-24T16:11:39Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#7aa410fe-1eac-43e9-a854-ddcb42919035 I adore John Compton. I've never seen him perform in person but the performances I've seen on video have been awesome. He's the co-director of Hahbi 'Ru: http://www.hahbiru.com/the_troupe.html Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:38:15 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#7aa410fe-1eac-43e9-a854-ddcb42919035 Sara 2005-03-24T03:38:15Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#35ae75d3-d591-412c-be4b-4d071f4450e8 theres a few in san fran i think Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:37:17 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#35ae75d3-d591-412c-be4b-4d071f4450e8 Greer 2005-03-24T00:37:17Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6525f2a9-941c-4ec8-b485-f1d8a075a0d1 Check out the thread in the UNMATA tribe unmata.tribe.net . There is a whole thread recently started that talks about this. Enjoy! Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:50:47 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#6525f2a9-941c-4ec8-b485-f1d8a075a0d1 SummerSaharSupastar! 2005-03-23T22:50:47Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#af297529-1674-4104-9220-4e3714e0cd7a John Compton has some great video's out, Jim Boz and David of Sweeden are both local to San Diego. I think I remember hearing that Jim will be out Vegas way for "Wiggles of the West." I enjoy seeing male belly dancers. I'm lucky enough to take classes with Jim. Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:28:58 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#af297529-1674-4104-9220-4e3714e0cd7a Witchy 2005-03-23T22:28:58Z http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#64e0560e-32c5-4c88-b454-ab4d5499772c Hulo all, I just joined your tribe here, so greetings to all you lovely folks, does anyone know of any male belly dancing tpes, classes, teachers thatI can find out side of my yearly pilgramige to Pensic every year? And as a discussion thread what do you all think of male belly dancers? Naked Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:10:39 GMT http://bellydance.tribe.net/thread/367f6bd1-af28-4eb3-b563-500b8c04a10d#64e0560e-32c5-4c88-b454-ab4d5499772c Shawn 2005-03-23T21:10:39Z